Help Needed!

"deprecated account" (savethei4s) 09/29/2016 at 15:34 • Filed to: None

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Oppo, what are some extremely unreliable cars/engines, specifically ones with head gasket issues due to different block/head materials ? I’m trying to talk my Materials Science teacher into buying a beater with potential head gasket issues off craigslist so that we can watch them fail catastrophically. Naturally, the difference in block and head materials is very important as this is supposed to be a teachable moment about different rates of expansion in metals. These cars should be obtainable for less than $3k. Thanks!

Candidates so far:

Mid-late 90s Accord with F22B

‘95-’99 Sebring/Avenger or DSM

‘99-’05 WJ Grand Cherokee with 4.7

functionoverfashion > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 11:44

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I bet you could find a Subaru from the early ‘00's with a head gasket already failing... common reason people dump those things. And probably for well under 3k!

Supreme Chancellor and Glorious Leader SaveTheIntegras > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 11:45

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Subie?

HammerheadFistpunch > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 11:45

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Land/Range Rover aluminum block 4.0 and 4.6 Get a disco II and enjoy. EDIT: though its aluminum block and head so maybe that wont work. I know that the 1fz-fe motor had gasket issues, but that was due to a gasket material problem and its kinda of hit and miss.

hmmm

Camshaft Chris: Skyline/McLaren/Porsche Fanboy > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 11:45

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Chrysler 420A. Commonly found in the Dodge Neon and second generation (95-99) Mitsubishi Eclipse / Eagle Talon (non-turbo).

All three motors I went through with my Eclipse in high-school had head gasket issues. Plus these motors should be dirt cheap.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 11:45

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Early 2000s Subie? Late 90s Neon?

TheHondaBro > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 11:46

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If you’re looking for an unreliable engine, Mazda RX7.

cletus44 aka Clayton Seams > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 11:47

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Get any car, run it without coolant for 30 mins, and bam goes the head gasket.

functionoverfashion > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 11:47

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Also there’s this CL ad in New Hampshire. Is this you? LOL

“Looking for 2004+ Subaru’s with Head Gasket Issues”

http://nh.craigslist.org/wan/5731421393.html

Jcarr > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 11:47

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Find a GM 3.4 with the original head gasket and fill the radiator with Dexcool.

For Sweden > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 11:48

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All the Subarus

and 100 more > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 11:48

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Mid- to late-90s Honda Accords, especially the lower-end trim. They came with the F22B engines that were iron block, aluminum head. They are notoriously reliable; however, their biggest flaw was the dissimilar materials that would lead to head gasket failure. Ask me how I know. Milkshake in my radiator, milkshake in my oil pan.

Other Honda engines had the same issue, but these are the only ones i know about for sure.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 11:48

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Cough......cough......second generation 4Runner...cough

shop-teacher > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 11:51

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Chevy Vega, but good luck finding a running one with it’s original engine!

HammerheadFistpunch > For Sweden 09/29/2016 at 11:52

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Specifically SOHC NA EJ25

HammerheadFistpunch > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 09/29/2016 at 11:54

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yeah the 3vz is know to pop em

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > HammerheadFistpunch 09/29/2016 at 11:56

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It is a spectacle to witness at 70 mph.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 11:56

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Early GMC Duramax trucks (aluminum head, iron block). But I doubt you’d find one in that budget.

Also, not a head problem, but pretty much all 90's GM V6 engines. They used iron, or aluminum heads, and plastic intake manifolds which have a coolant crossover passage. Eventually the plastic cracks and pisses coolant all over the top of the engine.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Jcarr 09/29/2016 at 11:57

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Win!

Boxer_4 > functionoverfashion 09/29/2016 at 11:58

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Not due to a different head and block materials though. Subaru boxer engines have been aluminum block and heads since their introduction in 1966.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > Snuze: Needs another Swede 09/29/2016 at 11:59

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That also eventually happens with all of the earlier Ford 4.6l modular motors.

Boxer_4 > HammerheadFistpunch 09/29/2016 at 12:00

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These were aluminum head and aluminum block though, not what Save the V8s is looking for...

ShrimpHappens, née WJalopy > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 12:02

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4.7L V8 in a 1999-2004 (“WJ”) Grand Cherokee

Snuze: Needs another Swede > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 09/29/2016 at 12:05

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Yeah. Also, don’t the spark plugs get stuck and then rip chunks of thread out?

TysMagic > HammerheadFistpunch 09/29/2016 at 12:06

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the rover option is still incredibly unreliable and has some interesting gasket issues claimed to be from the antifreeze used (the “better for the environment” orange stuff) so maybe could still swing some material science in with that?

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > HammerheadFistpunch 09/29/2016 at 12:06

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They’ll have to be on their first head gaskets, after you swap in a new one (unless there is something warped or you reuse stretch bolts) they normally don’t blow again.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > TysMagic 09/29/2016 at 12:13

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I’m pretty sure all the reasons for blown head gaskets stem from shitty materials used on the ones installed during assembly. Same company who made gaskets for LR, also made them for Merc and Jag.

ShrimpHappens, née WJalopy > ShrimpHappens, née WJalopy 09/29/2016 at 12:14

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Well, I might as well take a moment to defend the vehicle I’m currently driving (and intend to do so long enough for it to become retro-hipster-cool like the Grand Wagoneer).

The 4.7L has iron block and aluminum heads, but it’s not really “notoriously” unreliable. The word on the street is that if you overheat it once, you’re screwed and will drop a valve. So as long as you maintain all components of you cooling system, including the power steering pump as it powers the main fan, you ought to be ok.

However, others have dropped valves with no warning at all. Concerning that, there was a thread on JeepForum ages ago where someone pointed out that the folks who dropped valves with no warning claimed to have always babied their engines and taken it easy on them (you know, driving like a grandpa). A few folks chimed in on the thread with very high (150k+) mileage and said they drove the piss out of their engines. The redline on them is 5500 after all, so perhaps they like to be run out. So, I try to redline mine every day. Two years into ownership, so far so good.

Steve is equipped with Electronic Fool Injection > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 12:15

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Neon. If you can find a neon that hasn’t already had its head gasket blow, you can find those well under $3k. The 2.0 SOHC was notorious.

TysMagic > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 09/29/2016 at 12:16

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I’m talking other gaskets as well. As well as just poor designs. The throttle body heater plate for example. A square device held on by a triangular set of bolts.

Steve is equipped with Electronic Fool Injection > and 100 more 09/29/2016 at 12:16

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Mine had the odor of gasoline in my radiator. Yup.

Needmoargarage > For Sweden 09/29/2016 at 12:18

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Agreed. Though they are mostly aluminum blocks and heads.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > TysMagic 09/29/2016 at 12:19

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Ah, well yeah that’s fair. At least those are easy to replace (unless you just say hang it all and bypass it entirely).

TysMagic > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 09/29/2016 at 12:21

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Considered the bypass, but read too many mixed reviews of the idea.
If I remember right I had the head of a bolt break off upon installation of the new one...covered it with gasket maker, no more leaks! *shifty work complete*

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > Snuze: Needs another Swede 09/29/2016 at 12:22

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That too.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > TysMagic 09/29/2016 at 12:25

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Yeah I used a whole gob of gasket maker on mine as well. I’ve replaced mine twice, second time was when I did the head gaskets (used ARP studs instead of stretch bolts) and so far so good.

0pihl > HammerheadFistpunch 09/29/2016 at 12:35

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The 1998 DOC 2.5 as well. As me how I know.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 13:37

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The Triump Stag was notorious for this but good luck finding one of those.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Steve is equipped with Electronic Fool Injection 09/29/2016 at 13:47

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That wasn’t from aluminum head/iron block though. It was (stupidly) from a head bolt hole that wasn’t drilled quite deep enough at the factory so the bolt would bottom out before the gasket had enough pressure on it. Let the engine overheat just a bit and voila! The gasket fails at that spot.

The fix was literally just a thicker head gasket.

functionoverfashion > Boxer_4 09/29/2016 at 14:53

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Ah, I see. He’s looking at it specifically for the materials involved... gotcha.

deprecated account > Supreme Chancellor and Glorious Leader SaveTheIntegras 09/29/2016 at 15:19

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Somebody said they were Al block and head

deprecated account > Camshaft Chris: Skyline/McLaren/Porsche Fanboy 09/29/2016 at 15:19

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They iron block/aluminum head or vice versa?

deprecated account > TheHondaBro 09/29/2016 at 15:20

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I couldn’t make a rotary suffer like that.

deprecated account > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 09/29/2016 at 15:21

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The main thing is the difference between metal expansion rates though.

deprecated account > functionoverfashion 09/29/2016 at 15:21

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No haha. I want something that’s not ruined yet, only something soon to be.

deprecated account > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 09/29/2016 at 15:22

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:(((

deprecated account > Steve is equipped with Electronic Fool Injection 09/29/2016 at 15:25

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1st or 2nd gen? Or either?

ETA: never mind, just saw EssExTee’s comment

CaptDale - is secretly British > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 15:37

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Any early Subaru 4cyl. Especially if it hasn’t had them replaced in the last 5 or so years when the materials were still bad.

deprecated account > CaptDale - is secretly British 09/29/2016 at 15:41

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People are saying they’re aluminum head and block

LongbowMkII > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 15:47

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And coolant minimizes the temperature change, therefore the rate of material expansion.

No coolant is best coolant.

Tristan > ShrimpHappens, née WJalopy 09/29/2016 at 15:47

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I wanna give multiple stars. The WJ isn’t a Toyota. It requires care. The 4.7 gets its reputation from people who neglect/overheat them, and Chrysler’s infinitely wise 7,000 mile OCI. My ‘02 WJ Overland is sitting at 154k miles on its original 4.7 HO. It gets 3,000 mile oil changes, annual coolant flushes with G2, and it works for a living dragging around a 24' travel trailer. Aside from a bit of oil consumption while working hard, she’s a peach. I do watch the temp gauge like a hawk, though. I <3 my WJ.

LongbowMkII > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 15:48

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Do not pick a 5M/6M

deprecated account > LongbowMkII 09/29/2016 at 15:48

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?

ttyymmnn > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 15:50

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Please refer to The Big Book of British Cars.

deprecated account > ttyymmnn 09/29/2016 at 15:51

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lol I might actually have a book with a title that’s something like that

LongbowMkII > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 15:52

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It’s iron/aluminum but kill videos are extremely long even without coolant.

Wouldn’t differing thermal expansion be better shown with a torch and metal rods? I mean it’s a crap shoot that the gasket will be the point of failure anyways.

lone_liberal > shop-teacher 09/29/2016 at 15:52

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It gets bonus points for having an unusual aluminum block and cast iron head combination.

Tristan > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 15:52

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LEAVE THE 4.7 ALONE!!!

I nominate any Ford Essex 3.8 V6 prior to 1999. Aluminum heads, iron bock, notorious head gasket eater, and no redeeming qualities to cause anyone to mourn its loss (as long as it isn’t a SuperCoupe or XR-7 Supercharged).

CaptDale - is secretly British > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 15:53

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I missed you different metal thing... whoops. Saw head gasket issue and its something I deal with almost every day.

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > CaptDale - is secretly British 09/29/2016 at 15:55

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The Subaru gasket failures were not due to differing materials. It was because there was a section of the gasket which did not get proper coolant flow, causing it to fail. They updated the design of the gasket in 2004 or so to allow coolant into that region of the gasket and now the issues are mostly resolved.

deprecated account > LongbowMkII 09/29/2016 at 15:55

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What engine are you talking about? And this is much more entertaining than a torch and metal rods. I’m not sure the school has a torch anyway.

CaptDale - is secretly British > TheTurbochargedSquirrel 09/29/2016 at 16:00

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Yes I know. I didn’t read his post thoroughly.

HammerheadFistpunch > ttyymmnn 09/29/2016 at 16:00

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Thats enough!

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 16:00

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VW family diesel engines from the 80s can have issues - diesel heat + aluminum head and iron block, and once one has had head gasket issues they’re hard to make stop. Don’t know about getting a Volvo 240 diesel or Mk. 1 Golf diesel off Craigslist below your budget, though, even with head gasket issues.

Plot twist: repeat head gasket issues are often due to what one might term a “set” developing in the head. The proper fix is actually to oven-anneal the head and *then* resurface it, because a head that is true when cool is often not when hot.

I Will Always Be The Honey Badger > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 16:02

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I’d like to suggest a test with iron block, iron heads, aluminum piston. Drain coolant, keep oil( cap breathers and PCV). Run for, oh, about 45min. Engine will no longer turn over. Bear witness to aluminum pistons seized into the iron block.

Edit- Seal internals to keep oil from burning. And fill with a good Synthetic oil. They generally stay stable better in higher temperatures.

LongbowMkII > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 16:02

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The Toyota 5M/6M engines, mk2 supra and cressidas.

Seat Safety Switch > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 16:08

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2.2L pushrod Cavaliers, especially the post-97 models.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > LongbowMkII 09/29/2016 at 16:14

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I wouldn’t say that blowing a HG in an M engine is because the designers failed to account for thermal expansion. Don’t know much about the 6Ms, but 5Ms are damn near unkillable.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 16:24

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Old datsuns have cast iron blocks and aluminum heads, if you could find a crappy late 70's 510 or similar that would be a really easy car to work on.

TheJWT > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 16:46

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-beater car to kill

-higher budget than my car

deprecated account > TheJWT 09/29/2016 at 18:09

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The school/science dept./my teacher would pay for it. Not to sound snobby or anything, but I go to a very nice private school, and we just ordered a $3600 (IIRC) tensile tester, so money isn’t an issue. I just told my teacher we could find something for less than the tensile tester, so I was definitely leaving the budget a little high. Ideally it would only be in the 3-digit range though.

Die-Trying > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 19:14

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something with a northstar..........

the v6 gm3400? the ones in the 03-ish impalas

the gm v6 3800 series

the 80's ford 5.0............ the old one (they only had 4 head bolts per cyl)

deprecated account > Die-Trying 09/29/2016 at 19:24

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I couldn’t do that to a northstar. Plus aren’t all those aluminum block and head though?

Die-Trying > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 19:31

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aluminum block, and heads, but the head bolts give it up in the aluminum block............ they pull the threads, just removing them...........

Batman the Horse > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 19:32

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The first one that springs to mind is the Corvair. Drivable beaters are less than $3k.

Junkrat aka Rick Sanchez: Fury Road Edition > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 19:56

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The old Chevy LUV’s had an Isuzu engine that was cast iron block and aluminum head. They were famous for the head gasket issues. 

TheJWT > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 20:14

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This is possibly the only test where spending less money would lead to a better result. Sounds like fun though!

deprecated account > Batman the Horse 09/29/2016 at 20:31

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No such luck but it would definitely be cool.

deprecated account > Junkrat aka Rick Sanchez: Fury Road Edition 09/29/2016 at 20:32

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Definitely look into it.

Camshaft Chris: Skyline/McLaren/Porsche Fanboy > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 21:42

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Yep. Iron block, aluminum head, oil everywhere.

deprecated account > Camshaft Chris: Skyline/McLaren/Porsche Fanboy 09/29/2016 at 21:58

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On the list!

sdwarf36 > deprecated account 09/29/2016 at 23:27

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I working in the auto machine biz for years. You always will see some percentage of most every brand + model. But sometimes theres trends in heads to be surfaced. The worst I can remember was the 90's Ford 4.0. (V6-aluminum heads-iron block.) I’ve done 3 sets in the same day.